Curse

Sleeper Service · Jan 21, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

I would actually like to see some sort of energy management component added to this:

"For every 2 ranks in spawning power, whenever a spirit in the area dies, you gain 1 energy"

the opposite would be better imo,

"for every two (or even just one maybe) ranks in spawning power, whenever a spirit is created, you gain 1 energy"

back in the pre SR nerf days it would have included minions too of course.

Curse You · Jan 21, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

the opposite would be better imo,

"for every two (or even just one maybe) ranks in spawning power, whenever a spirit is created, you gain 1 energy"

back in the pre SR nerf days it would have included minions too of course.

Yea, makes more sense with the whole spawning part. I'm in favor of it doing something related to energy management, since ritualists have some pretty costly spells (most of them spirirts).

Yet again, it would require them to lower the energy gain from [wiki]Boon of Creation[/wiki] to prevent abuse.

Kanyatta · Jan 21, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

the opposite would be better imo,

"for every two (or even just one maybe) ranks in spawning power, whenever a spirit is created, you gain 1 energy"

back in the pre SR nerf days it would have included minions too of course.

I agree with this. To have it when a spirit dies would make it basically a buffed clone of Soul Reaping.

Boon of Creation would have to take a little nerf too, but, it would be for the good of the Ritualist.

System_Crush · Jan 21, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

I feel spawning power should make those really good spirits that lose(sac) health last longer.
Right now it does that but only a little, it could be done by just tripling the effect per rank, but that might create some unbalance as it also affects minions.

I suggest it increases the charges on spirits and weapon spells.
I support th OP's idea that all weapon spells should read for X...X+3Y(X+4Y) hits.

Spawning power
Every rank in spawning power, health loss on spirits you create is reduced by 3% and every 3 ranks weapon spells last for 1 hit longer.

This makes spirits lose less health from damage, as well as from the damage they deal to them self, up to 48% allowing for almost twice the duration.
The effect on minion health, could be replaced by some enchantment that does a dummed down version of [skill=text]Signet of Binding[/skill] and without the 30 sec till death(or with it, as only bombers use spawning powered minions anyway).

This makes spirits on a spawning power rit much more resilient, which is highly needed since the implementation of dervishes, that are just too good at wiping out the rit and their spirits at the same time.
Also making spirits like shelter, twice as effective on a rit with high spawning power, opposed to the 3-4 additional effect fires you get from it now.

GiZMo · Jan 21, 2008, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

I feel spawning power should make those really good spirits that lose(sac) health last longer.
Right now it does that but only a little, it could be done by just tripling the effect per rank, but that might create some unbalance as it also affects minions.

I suggest it increases the charges on spirits and weapon spells.
I support th OP's idea that all weapon spells should read for X...X+3Y(X+4Y) hits.

Spawning power
Every rank in spawning power, health loss on spirits you create is reduced by 3% and every 3 ranks weapon spells last for 1 hit longer.

This makes spirits lose less health from damage, as well as from the damage they deal to them self, up to 48% allowing for almost twice the duration.
The effect on minion health, could be replaced by some enchantment that does a dummed down version of [skill=text]Signet of Binding[/skill] and without the 30 sec till death(or with it, as only bombers use spawning powered minions anyway).

This makes spirits on a spawning power rit much more resilient, which is highly needed since the implementation of dervishes, that are just too good at wiping out the rit and their spirits at the same time.
Also making spirits like shelter, twice as effective on a rit with high spawning power, opposed to the 3-4 additional effect fires you get from it now.

All of this, in my opinion, is beautifully thought out. I actually REALLY like this version of Spawning Power a lot! Spirits not having additional health but rather damage reduction is brilliant. Almost like armor but not really. For weapons to have an additional hit longer, then all weapon spells should therefore be limited to a number of uses. Weapon of Warding should specify the next 1...10 attacks block 50% as a nice example. And Spirit Light Weapon should definitely be like some sort of rof-like effect, where the next 1...8 hits are healed instead (max 10) and if within earshot of a spirit that max is upped to max (25). Again, that's just an example of how weapon spells could work.

System_Crush · Jan 21, 2008, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

All of this, in my opinion, is beautifully thought out. I actually REALLY like this version of Spawning Power a lot! Spirits not having additional health but rather damage reduction is brilliant. Almost like armor but not really. For weapons to have an additional hit longer, then all weapon spells should therefore be limited to a number of uses. Weapon of Warding should specify the next 1...10 attacks block 50% as a nice example.

Actually I like Weapon of Warding for it's prot potential, I think it should have after blocking X attacks.
That way it only ends after a number of successfully blocked attacks, would be a shame to put a nerf on the rit's second best protection skill when trying to make them more likable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

And Spirit Light Weapon should definitely be like some sort of rof-like effect, where the next 1...8 hits are healed instead (max 10) and if within earshot of a spirit that max is upped to max (25). Again, that's just an example of how weapon spells could work.

That is not like [skill=text]Reversal of Fortune[/skill] its more like [skill=text]Mark of Protection[/skill] in which chase it could be pretty overpowered, note the lock and recharge of mark.

[skill=text]Weapon of Remedy[/skill] and [skill=text]Vengeful weapon[/skill] would do that pretty much, Spirit light should live up to it's function more, a low cost long duration restoration weapon spell that is good to trigger [skill=text]Wielder's Boon[/skill] and also provides helps keep that party meber allive, I'm thinking that like its name mate [skill=text]Spirit Light[/skill] it would move a %/# of the next 4...13(16) hits of damage towards you or the nearest (allied or not)spirit in earshot if there is one.
But thats just a random thought.

ensoriki · Jan 21, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

weapon spells don't need to be removed.
Many of them don't see play anyways, and one of their best features it that they cannot be removed.

Just becomes Warmongers is very iffy doesn't mean the characteristics of the Skill Type is.

System_Crush · Jan 21, 2008, 12:59 PM // 12:59

o.O didn't notice this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

Secondly, I want to mention the one big, imbalanced feature of weapon spells: the inability to strip them, ever. Enchantments you can, but apparently not weapon spells. Why is that? In my honest opinion it screams imbalance, but nothing has been done about it. Once that warmonger's goes up, it'll last its whole duration, whereas say if I used the elite Shield of Regeneration to protect myself... uh oh, my enchantment got stripped by Shatter Enchantment.

Weapon spells aren't supposed to be removable, its part of the skill type.
Their use is limited as they don't stack, but are unremovable in return.
I do not think it is a good idea to make them removable.

I think Anet originally intended to use [skill=text]Dulled Weapon[/skill] as a foe targeting weapon spell to overwrite weapon spell on a group of foes, but didn't because it conflicts with lore.

Weapon spells replace your weapon:
If anything should remove them it's the warrior skill disarm.
Other than that there is no reason someone would give their weapon away, or use a weapon a foe hands to them.

Shadowlance. · Jan 22, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Temporarily setting aside skills linked to a primary attribute, one of the reasons of having an inherent effect to a primary attribute is to make that profession "better" at its own "thing" as compared to a secondary. For example if Divine Favor didn't add extra healing, there would be little reason to have a monk primary, since an E/Mo could heal just as well, and have a larger pool of energy to draw from. But because DF does add extra healing, a Mo/E makes a better healer than an E/Mo in most scenarios.

My point in this is that Spawning Power should make a primary Ritualist better than a secondary Ritualist at "Ritualist things". Right now the buff to spirit health and duration of weapon spells is nice, but not nearly enough. Some of the ideas outlined above seem very viable and worthy of consideration.

MithranArkanere · Jan 22, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Hm... so... the things that ritualist do are...
Binding rituals, weapon spells and item spells...

What about having a buff while holding any item? Like... +1 energy per level?

System_Crush · Jan 23, 2008, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

What about having a buff while holding any item? Like... +1 energy per level?

Isn't that just a nerfed version of energy storage?
Sides the best used item spells are already for energy management I think.

Wut about a supportive buff?
Rits do a lot of things, but they do most of them to support someone.
I mean the rit will not be called 'the tank' or 'the healer' a hybrid channelling/restoration rit with ancestor and splinter, probably won't be referred to as 'the nuker'

So what if their primary supports their allies?
Like the effect of [skill=text]Weapon of Quickening[/skill].
What if every 2 ranks in spawning power(would need a rename) reduced the skill recharge of all allies in (spirit-)range by 1% ?
(would probably be needed to limit it from stacking any higher than the combined effect of 5 ritualists)
(Even though, the limit to summon only 1 of the same spirit per team, should already nerf them enough to not make all rit teams(thrust me I've been in them in RA, it's pretty useless))

Spirits like pain, use a skill every 2 seconds, it would make them attack faster, primary ritualists could spamm spirits, weapon/item spells and heals just a little faster, obviously making them better at what they do.
But not only that you would also improve your team, making you better at what ritualists do without even trying.

MithranArkanere · Jan 23, 2008, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Hm... I somehow like the increase attack speed in spirits... but not all of them attack, and there are some that lose health when attacking, so more speed for them could be bad...

And what about an increase in range for ritualist-only effects (Spirits, Weapon spells and Item spells)?

Let's say that the radius of each area is:
Soul Reaping rank 0:
0- Single target/Touch: 0m.
1- Adjacent: 3m.
2- Nearby: 9m.
3- In the area: 15m.
9- Within earshot: 45m.
12- Spirit attack range: 60m
21 - Spirit range: 105m
I don't know the real figures, these are just references for the idea.

Now, based on that:

Each rank of Spawning power would increase the range by 2%. At rank 15, that would mean 32%m more. That is:

Soul Reaping rank 16:
0- Single target/Touch: 0m.
1- Adjacent: 4m.
2- Nearby: 12m.
3- In the area: 20m.
9- Within earshot: 60m.
12- Spirit attack range: 80m
21 - Spirit range: 136m

Since it won't affect spell, just weapon, item and spirits, it won't be too much overpowered.
And if they were, those could be deboffed to work right now with 0SpawnPow, so only Ritualists have them working powerfull enough.

A bit more of range always helps.

tehshadowninjar · Jan 23, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Like spawning power matters. It's used for energy management or something on ritualists, I think. The only skill I have with Spawning Power is Boon of Creation. Which gives so much health and energy when you summon a spirit using a spirit skill thingy. Most people play rits as a support character. If 80% of your build doesn't involve some decent input in spawning power, quit whining about it >.> And I hardly ever play rit because, imo, they suck. I like dealing damage, not doing screwed up healing. I got a spike build with my rit, but it's annoying since you have to constantly apply pressure, than do something real quick and it be done. Of course, I'm talking about PvP :P But still.....

Div · Jan 23, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

The biggest problem with spawning power is the lack of good spirits outside of gimmick builds (and even then, people take n/rt), and the fact the weapon benefits aren't so great. But to respond to some of the points, a necro can fare pretty well going 12 curses, 12 blood, and 3 soul reaping. A warrior can go 12 sword, 12 tactics, and 3 strength. The thing is that in the right builds, other classes only need 3 in their primary attributes as well. Unfortunately for the ritualists, the only viable builds are those kinds of builds.

Having the next x...y attacks for warmongers is basically like reducing its duration. No one is going to wait and not attack when they could be doing constant DPS. The reason is that it's impossible to time an interrupt on anything that's 1 second or less with that waiting method, so it's not like it matters if they save the uses.

Spawning power elites could use buffs, but just because the attribute has a few good skills doesn't mean someone will sacrifice their standard rit build for it. Even if you buff those 4 mentioned skills, it's still going to see play in places like HA or GvG. For GvG, there simply aren't any spirits to use them on. For HA, you're basically wasting a character and an elite to counter IWAY, which most good teams can beat anyways. RA/TA is even more situational. They'd be great for certain PvE areas, like Duncan, but unless spirits get an overall utility buff (which'll end up overpowering them probably), you won't see spawning power.

Shadowlance. · Jan 23, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Maybe Spawning Power would become more attractive if we kept the existing spirit health and weapon spell duration buffs, but also added a decrease to casting time for binding rituals. For example if you invested enough points in Spawning Power possibly a 5-second binding ritual could be reduced to 4-seconds or even 3-seconds.

MithranArkanere · Jan 23, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Maybe for all 'Summonin' skills:

- Animate spells.
- Bind Rituals.
- Nature rituals.
- Asura summons.

NamelessBeauty · Jan 23, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Uhmm you know, not just Rit but all other Primary atribute skills are not used very often. BUT it does not mean it never be used lol! in some build they do use it. Like Consume Soul is used by Sin be4, Reclaim ess is used in Rit spike and such. What your suggestion is pretty much nerfing PD out of HA lol. Cause PD is mostly used for Ghostly hero and Spirit spammer -,-". So idk, I like owning Iway lol! but not sure if its justified!